In response to the comments on the last post:
Unfortunately at this facility it is all or nothing. They teach so many lessons during the college quarters that they need all hands on deck. The number beginner lessons far FAR outweighs the number of advanced lessons, so that won't work. He is one of the best horses she has for the beginners under saddle. He's never been lame and he just does what he's asked in the arena. He is slow to respond to halts but he is not dangerous about it, just takes a few extra steps to make sure you meant it. He isn't spooky or hot and he doesn't need to be lunged on a Monday morning before lessons start.
I can choose to not renew and wait a bit, but if I choose to re-enroll it would be for a year's contract again, and NO, the BO's are NOT flexible on this.
All riders do sign a liability form so I wouldn't be the one to bear the fault of negligence if he hurt someone. But like Friday, I would feel terrible and I would be embarrassed. I don't want to be the owner of "that horse" which is what he's becoming. Last night I went to ride him and he got bitey and kickey with me while grooming and I had to smack him around. Some lesson moms came up and said (before I had to smack him around) "I am just amazed at how good he is with you. He will barely let us brush him."
All of this also makes me wonder what else could be going on with him. He seems totally healthy and his weight is so much better. He's still a 6 or so, but his fat pads have shrunk and he seems to be maintaining an even weight. He does not seem lame or in pain under saddle, aside from the occasional hind end stumble when neither of us are managing his balance, but he's never been the most coordinated. I have plans to get him a chiro, but that's not happened yet. I thought about ulcers, but he doesn't show any of the physical symptoms of it. I can groom him roughly when he's got something else to look at and he doesn't care. I think it's just a "go away" type thing. "If I'm mean to you will you just go away? Like a fly or another horse?" Remember, he was never taught the difference between other horse buddies and human alphas and it's taken me a good long while for me to establish the dominance and respect I have... which he still ignores occasionally. I was told his breeder was afraid of him. I'm not afraid. He's not aggressive, just naughty.
Oooohhh I have one of those naughty ones who intimidated his breeder until last year when I brought him home at the age of 6. He learned that on the ground I'm not easily intimidated and eventually we worked thru our undersaddle issues too. From what you describe about Juniors "issues" being brushed and such Junior and Louie sound like twins! Good luck with whatever you decide with him!
ReplyDeleteMaybe it's his way of telling you he's unhappy being handled by a bunch of kids?
ReplyDeleteJust something to think about.
We had a horse that was used for lessons but just got burned out from it. He got annoyed with all the beginners, and just didn't like it. It wasn't pain. He just wasn't suited to being passed around.
ReplyDeleteHe started biting kids. Never bit me, but I knew he was done with it. So he went to a guy who wanted a reliable trail horse - and he was the PERFECT trail horse.
Being a lesson horse can be really hard on a horse, mentally, as well as physically. I've worked in several lesson programs (most recently at a university lesson program similar to the one you describe). It sounds to me like Junior is trying to tell you that he isn't really enjoying being a lesson horse. It's HARD being a lesson horse. People you don't know handling you, and maybe they aren't very good at putting a halter on and a strap rubs against your eye, maybe they use a hard brush on your face, maybe they make you hold your hind legs overly flexed while picking out your feet, maybe they don't adjust your saddle correctly, or leave a lump in the pad, maybe they aren't so gentle with the bridle and it clinks on your teeth. Then when they ride you they are totally unbalanced, falling on your back and pulling on your reins every time they post. Or they ask you to go forward, and when you do, they fall back and pull on your reins. Maybe its just going in repetitive circles that gets to you or being ridden with other poorly steered horses.
ReplyDeleteAny way you slice it, it is a really tough job to be a lesson horse. Is it possible to renew the contract, but ask that he only be used for a maximum of say, 3 lessons a week? Or maybe as an alternative to being used in the lesson program, find him a half- lease? Often times horses will find being ridden by one other person much less objectionably than being used as a lesson horse.
Not all horses are cut out to be lesson horses. In fact the good ones are saints. They have to put up with a lot! His behavior seems to be telling you he doesn't like it! It will only get worse with people that don't know how to read a horse and correct the behavior.
ReplyDeleteIt sounds like before renewing your contract you should get a chiro and maybe a massage therapist to see him to at least let you know if he's in need of their services. I would think that any horse being ridden that much by that many beginners could only stand to benefit. It's not cheap, but it's not the most expensive thing either.
ReplyDeleteTo check for ulcers, just get a syringe of ulcer gard from your vet. Try it and see if things change immediately afterward. It would not be surprising if he had ulcers based on his current schedule. Pain can contribute to ulcers as well.
IMHO, any horse being put through that should have special care. At the very least, I'd want treat my horse (with no issues from the lessons) to a monthly massage.
hmmmm..I agree with the others. Maybe your boy is more of a one person horse vs many...not that he couldn't do lessons but maybe see if you can cut it back, or limit it to more experienced kids that are maybe a bit more gentle/knowledgeable when it comes to handling? If his attitude has changed..kicking, etc..that is ALL he has to tell you something is not right in his world.
ReplyDeleteYou'll figure it out I'm sure. :)
Hey got some questions...and advice.. when did you last float his teeth? what kind of bit does he use in lessons? do people hover over him a lot .. does he get enough of "his space" ? what grain is he on ?
ReplyDeleteDON'T smack him around ! you don't know what is going on ! he is probaly over everybody over him ! he needs to be a horse sometimes ! try some Clinton Anderson - disingadgeing - ground work .. but most of all.. put your self in HIS HOOFS !
I watch the new riders on the lesson horses at our barn and I just cringe, all that bouncing around has got to be hard on their back. But I completely understand your situation, I had to let my horse be used as a trail horse when I was a teenager. I either let him be used or my guardian said he had to go, but they used him pretty hard and I'm sure that contributes to some of the issues he's having now in his twenties.
ReplyDeleteGood luck on your decision making.
Rachel,
ReplyDeleteLet me explain: if he bites at me I WILL "bite" him back to let him know that the behavior is not acceptable and that I am in charge. I will THEN carefully investigate the problem and try to rectify it so that he doesn't have a reason to need to bite at me. I AM listening to him, which is why I'm looking at possible reasons for his behavior. A sharp smack to the shoulder with a rubber grooming mitt will not hurt him, only get his attention. He is a big tough horse.
If you've been reading this blog you will know that I have done a thorough analysis of his feed rations including lab testing of pasture and hay and that he is on a fiber-based low starch low sugar grain called Safe & Lite. He is on an 80:20 forage to concentrate ration.
His teeth are checked every 6 months and were last floated within the year. He uses a mild broken mouth shank bit with a properly fitted (on the loose side) curb chain in lessons just like I use when I ride him. For English he is using a broken mouth kimberwicke.
I doubt highly it has anything to do with his tack or teeth as his issues are in the stall while grooming, not while riding.
In response to Rachel and Julie's comments:
ReplyDeleteI think its great that when a horse begins displaying an inappropriate behavior, the first thing we do as horse owners is look for a physical cause. Many times the cause of "bad" behavior IS rooted in physical discomfort, but not always.
Sometimes now, I think we go to far the other direction. I know several horses that wear a blanket (because 50 degrees is COLD!), bell boots (in case they stumble), a fly mask (there could be flies in winter...), live in a stall and never get turned out for fear of injury, get chiro'ed, massaged, and are fed more supplements than actual food. These horses are certainly healthy. But are they happy, and more importantly for this conversation, are they 100% free of behavioral problems?
Given the title of this blog, my guess would be that Junior is rather well cared for, and that his physical needs are more than adequately addressed. I can only speak for myself, but had it been me receiving these comments (particularly Rachel's) I would be feel a bit attacked, and very very guilty for not having done all of the things suggested.
Just my 2 cents on the whole issue.
ReplyDeleteI bought a mare quite a few years back. SHe originally was owned by a barn friend that had 4 horses and was in an accident that broke her leg. In order to help with the finances this mare was put into the lesson program (in much the same way junior is) after about 6-8 months her behaviour stared to deteriorate just like you explained. Her ground manners diapeared, she became hard to get out of her stall, very difficult to bridle.
I talked it over with my friend and ended up buying this mare for me and my daughter and within 3 months of us owning her she was back to her normal sweet self. All that ended up changing was that we took her out of the lesson program.
It could be that it is just too much for him, especialy since he seems like a real sweet guy!
Good luck with your decsion and don't doubt yourself! I think you are a very concientious horse owner.
~Steph
Gabrielle:
ReplyDeleteYou wrote:
"Given the title of this blog, my guess would be that Junior is rather well cared for, and that his physical needs are more than adequately addressed. I can only speak for myself, but had it been me receiving these comments (particularly Rachel's) I would be feel a bit attacked, and very very guilty for not having done all of the things suggested."
I was responding to the post, "I have plans to get him a chiro, but that's not happened yet. I thought about ulcers, but he doesn't show any of the physical symptoms of it." Not attacking, just suggesting that maybe it's time to look into these things. It's not like ulcers and back issues are a far-fetched possibility in this case.
I agree that there may or may not be physical issues contributing to a horse's behavior issues. The owner has not addressed two of the possible issues (see quote above) causing his behavior problems.
Finding out if a horse has ulcers can be pretty simple and inexpensive. The symptoms can vary wildly from obvious to not so obvious and I have more experience with ulcers than I care for with my former horse!
As far as chiro goes, I think it would be important in this situation to at least have your horse looked at to see if he needs regular chiro attention. I mean, he's being ridden by several new riders who bounce around and have no balance. It only makes sense. The chiro could come out and say "He looks great and has the perfect body structure to carry several beginners every day." Around here the horses at the theraputic riding centers have regular chiro, and I know the lesson horses at my facility have chiro as well.
You wrote:
"Sometimes now, I think we go to far the other direction. I know several horses that wear a blanket (because 50 degrees is COLD!), bell boots (in case they stumble), a fly mask (there could be flies in winter...), live in a stall and never get turned out for fear of injury, get chiro'ed, massaged, and are fed more supplements than actual food. These horses are certainly healthy. But are they happy, and more importantly for this conversation, are they 100% free of behavioral problems?"
I don't agree that these horses are healthy. Stalling/lack of turnout is a leading contributor of ulcers and not good for joints, arthiritic horses, back issues, etc., or their mental state. It's one of the worst things you can do to a horse, in my opinion. I board in a barn like the one you describe because it's close to my house and I work off my board, plus overall it's a very nice facility and the horses are well cared for, though I question this helicopter horse parent mentality, but that is the owner's choice. My horse is not the norm in this facility and luckily for us, she gets the five acres of pasture to herself because the other horses can't get hurt or dirty. Ironically she is twice as old as most of the other horses, does not receive chiro, ulcer treatment or hock injections (all else is equal as far as breed, size, the fact that she shows, etc.). There are plenty of behavioral problems and I have never seen so many horses pinning their ears all the time. They are not happy and they are not healthy.
I hate to group all people in one bunch . . . the stalled horses vs. the pasture horses. Horses are very adaptable and just as many of the stalled horses at my facility are healthy and happy. The horses are just as loved as the pasture horses and I know the stalled horse owners would say their horses are spoiled and more loved. I'm just making a comment based on what you wrote, and what I've seen with my own eyes over the past 25 years of boarding. Personally, I think horses in any situation need care based on their specific needs, how they are housed and what they are used for. I will stand firm when I say that I believe lesson horses should receive chiro and massage evaluations and be checked for ulcers should they develop sour behavior.
Julie
First of all, I know from reading this blog (titled accordingly, by the way) that you take excellent care of Junior and have nothing but his best interests at heart.
ReplyDeleteI also agree that his behavior stems from the many activities he has to participate in and not any physical ailments or tack issues. That's not to say he might not need a massage or an adjustment, but I doubt that is the cause of his behavioral changes.
It sounds like he might need a break from the kids. It's too bad you can't do some kind of partial lesson program where only certain kids are allowed to ride him, especially since there are kids who love Junior and named him their favorite. The schedule just sounds quite rigorous and it might be a bit much for him to handle.
Could you keep him out of the program for a couple months and then sign him back up? You already mentioned it's an all or nothing kind of thing, but perhaps you can convince her to work with you on it a little bit? I bet she'd miss having him in her lesson program.